modern love podcast
The New York Liberty point guard spent years figuring out her identity. Embracing it was a game changer, for both her career and her love life.
Credit…Photo Illustration by The New York Times; Background: Brian Rea; Inset photo: Michael Hickey/Getty Images
Natasha Cloud is a powerhouse. The New York Liberty point guard seems to have it all: a successful W.N.B.A. career, fierce confidence and a loving relationship with her girlfriend and teammate, Isabelle Harrison. On and off the court, Cloud radiates self-assurance and seems to know exactly who she is, but that sense of self was hard-won.
In a conversation with “Modern Love” podcast host Anna Martin, Cloud talked about growing up as the only mixed-race child in a white family, and how one conversation with her mother shifted everything she thought she knew about herself. She discussed finding her identity in college, her family’s love and acceptance for the “new Tash,” and why professional pressure led her to publicly identify as bisexual even though she knew the label didn’t feel right.
This is a transcript of an episode of “Modern Love,” edited for length and clarity. You can listen below, or by following or subscribing to the show on the NYT App, Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to the Conversation With Natasha Cloud
“Everything that I do is rooted in love, because everything that I have ever known has been rooted in love,” the W.N.B.A. star told us.
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transcript
Listen to the Conversation With Natasha Cloud
“Everything that I do is rooted in love, because everything that I have ever known has been rooted in love,” the W.N.B.A. star told us.
This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email [email protected] with any questions.anna martin
Hey, everyone. It’s Anna. Before we start the show, I want to ask you a question. And please, don’t be offended if it sounds a little direct, OK? Here goes. Are money issues affecting your relationship? Money can be awkward and sensitive to talk about — how much to save, how much to spend, who makes the decisions about what. But if you’re not talking about money, it can cause even bigger problems.
We have an episode coming up soon where I’ll be talking to Ramit Sethi. He hosted the Netflix show “How to Get Rich.” He’s written books on personal finance. And he’s especially good at helping couples resolve their differences around money and start to actually enjoy talking about it.
If this sounds like something you want to be a part of, please send us a short voice memo. Tell us about a moment you and someone you loved had tension around money. It could be your partner. It could be a family member. Tell us what happened to set it off, what you said to each other or didn’t say, and how you felt about all of it.
We might play your voice on the show. And hear Ramit’s advice on what you can do differently. Please email your voice memo to [email protected] by November 3. There’s instructions in our show notes. Please check those out. All right. Here’s today’s episode.
[MUSIC PLAYING]archived recording 1
Love now and always.archived recording 2
Did you fall in love last night?archived recording 3
Just tell her I love her.archived recording 4
Love is stronger than anything you can feel.archived recording 5
[SIGHS]: For the love.archived recording 6
Love.archived recording 7
And I love you more thanarchived recording 8
(SINGING) What is love?archived recording 9
Here’s to love.archived recording 10
Love.
[MUSIC PLAYING]anna martin
From “The New York Times,” I’m Anna Martin. This is “Modern Love.” WNBA finals just ended, and a lot of my friends are really jealous of me, because today I’m talking to one of the breakout stars of the 2025 season, Natasha Cloud. Natasha is one of New York Liberty’s powerhouses. She’s outspoken, she’s got immense amounts of swag, and she’s really freaking good at basketball.
When I watch her play, I see someone who is strong and confident, self-assured. But she wasn’t always that way. Today, I talked to Natasha Cloud about how a conversation with her mother changed everything she thought she knew about who she was and all the work she’s done in the years since to figure out who she really is.
Natasha Cloud, welcome to “Modern Love.”natasha cloud
Thank you for having me.anna martin
Do you prefer Tash? Everyone calls you Tash. I don’t know you so well yet. What do you like?natasha cloud
You can call me Tash, Tasha. Natasha is really like for my mama. And when she calls me Natasha, I’m like, oh shit, what did I do?anna martin
You’re a new New Yorker. What’s your go-to bodega order?natasha cloud
Ooh. I’m very basic with my food, but I love me a good bacon, egg, and cheese with the double cheese. Make that bacon extra crispy because I don’t want no fat on that.anna martin
Any sauce? Ketchup? Hot sauce? No?natasha cloud
I like a little hot sauce. But honestly, I’m a grape jelly girl. I know. I —anna martin
What? [LAUGHS]natasha cloud
I know.anna martin
On the bacon, egg, and cheese?natasha cloud
Listen, don’t knock it until you try it.anna martin
Wait I really don’t like that.natasha cloud
No. I’m telling you, you can’t knock it until you try it.anna martin
Is it salty and sweet?natasha cloud
Yeah, I tell you, it balances so well. Don’t overdo it with the jelly. Just a little bit at —anna martin
And you’re putting it in the sandwich. You’re not dipping it in.natasha cloud
I’m not dipping it. I’m putting a little bit on, smacking that sandwich. Now I’m busting that bitch down.anna martin
I have never heard of this. This could be —natasha cloud
That’s crazy.anna martin
— an innovation.natasha cloud
Let me put you on. Let me bring the Philly to New York.anna martin
This is the Tash sandwich.natasha cloud
This is the Tash sandwich.anna martin
You get it named after you.natasha cloud
This is the Cloud.anna martin
Oh, my God, that’s the Cloud.natasha cloud
That’s the Cloud.anna martin
You are the first athlete I’ve ever interviewed —natasha cloud
Stop.anna martin
— on “Modern Love.”natasha cloud
I’m honored.anna martin
It is funny to me that we’ve never had an athlete on because we’re a show about love and relationships. And it strikes me that relationships between teammates are incredibly close, can sometimes be complicated.natasha cloud
Yeah.anna martin
Let’s situate you in your role on your team. You’re a point guard.natasha cloud
Yes.anna martin
You know, when I think about hard things that a team goes through collectively, I think of losses. Sorry to say this, but it is true.natasha cloud
Yeah, we were sad girls.anna martin
Yeah, you were sad girls.natasha cloud
We were sad girls.anna martin
You were out of the playoffs in the first round. I wonder, how do you, as a leader on the team, how do you handle losses?natasha cloud
Whew, I’m a sore loser. So —anna martin
I feel like you don’t get to your level without being a sore loser.natasha cloud
Yeah, I truly hate losing. It could literally be an Uno game. Like, Izzy kicks my ass in Uno all the time.anna martin
Is Lizzy your girlfriend? We’ll talk about it.natasha cloud
Yes. Y’all, don’t play her in Uno. She be acting like this cute, little sweet “ooh, I don’t know what I’m doing.” And then, boom, Uno, out.anna martin
She’s getting that —natasha cloud
And I’m like, what the fuck you mean, out? We just started. So I’m super competitive. I will say that the accountability factor, even for myself, is like, when adversity hits, and there’s always like ebbs and flows of a season, is, I have to remain more consistent, even in my frustrations of like —anna martin
Hmm.natasha cloud
— I don’t feel like we’re playing well. We’re not gelling. We’re not — what is going — I’ll be frustrated. And then those moments, the accountability for me for next year is to be more consistent.anna martin
Tell me what that looks like for you. And we throw around this term “embodied.” But let’s say you’re feeling really fired up. You’re pissed about a loss, whatever. What do you do to calm yourself down specifically? Is it like you close your eyes? You take a breath? What’s your method?natasha cloud
I’m a big — I’m going to go throw some shit first, and probably —anna martin
You’re like, no, I take a plate.natasha cloud
So I’m going to remove myself —anna martin
I put it at the wall, yeah.natasha cloud
So I’m going to remove myself from the actual team setting. I’m probably going to go into a weight room, and I’m going to throw a medicine ball or something to get my initial “ahh” out of me.anna martin
I need to do that. Wait, can we both do that?natasha cloud
Yes.anna martin
3, 2, 1.anna and natasha
Ahh!natasha cloud
Shit!anna martin
I needed that, actually.natasha cloud
Thank you. Yeah. Sometimes it’s just like —anna martin
You just got to do it.natasha cloud
You just got to get it out.anna martin
No medicine ball in the studio right now, so we can’t do that.natasha cloud
No medicine ball.anna martin
All right, keep going.natasha cloud
And the walls look really nice in here, so —anna martin
Yeah, they’re pretty —natasha cloud
— we ain’t trying to pay.anna martin
They’re pretty new.natasha cloud
Yep.anna martin
OK, so you throw the medicine ball. Then what do you do?natasha cloud
So inhale for six, hold for one, exhale for seven to regulate my body and my nervous system, like meditation. And then I’ll go back in. And if I feel like I have to get into us a little bit, I will. But it will be in a very calm demeanor. But there’s a lot of times of like, it’s not just solely on me. I have a whole team behind me.
So there will be moments where I’ll do that, and I’ll come back in the locker room and I’ll just sit. And I’ll wait for Sam to say something. And I’ll wait for Stewie or JJ. Because it’s collaborative. As the point guard, I talk enough. The ball is always in my hands. I’m always directing and pointing. And so sometimes it is good for me just to sit back and shut the fuck up, too.anna martin
It sounds like these are skills you had to learn. You were maybe not this way —natasha cloud
No.anna martin
— when you were younger.natasha cloud
No.anna martin
Is there a story you can share of young Tash in sports or not, experiencing an adversity or a hardship and how you reacted with that fire, the younger version of you, I mean?natasha cloud
Man, I feel like I’m about to go deep with this question, but I think the very beginning for me in my story is that my mom is my real mom. My dad would technically be my stepdad, but that’s not who he is to me. That is my real father. Emil Cloud is the man that took me in and raised me and gave me everything that I needed to be successful in life. And the same with my mom, you know.anna martin
If you’re cool with it, I want to break down what you’re talking about. You were raised by who? And where?natasha cloud
Emil and Sharon Cloud in Broomall, Pennsylvania, right outside of Philadelphia, an all-white family. I’m the only one of mixed race in my family. Even just going back this weekend for a funeral, seeing my whole family, it’s just like, man, I literally am the black sheep.[laughs]
But I will say, in my family’s defense, I truly never felt different in my family. And so I —anna martin
Wow.natasha cloud
I was so innocent. And people really get tickled by this when I tell them. But I was like 11 when I was like, oh, I’m blackety Black. ‘Cause my dad, he actually tans. I’m not even playing. We would be the same color. And I’m like, oh, I just keep it for the duration.anna martin
[LAUGHS]: You’re like, this is a year round thing for me. Yeah.natasha cloud
That shows how innocent children truly are. And we teach them what they fully believe later in life. Because I would have never known that I was any bit different because my family never treated me different.anna martin
And how did your mom or your dad or your siblings back when you were 11, before you clocked that you were different, how did they — did they talk about you and your relationship with the famil? Or it was like not an exception at all, just something you didn’t speak about?natasha cloud
It was just like, this is our family. This is what our family looks like. And I’ve never — me and my siblings are technically half-siblings. None of us would ever say that.anna martin
But at the time, too, you didn’t know, right?natasha cloud
I didn’t know And so it comes to the point where you, as a kid, start getting curious, and you’re intrigued. And you’re starting to see how, again, the outside world is treating you. So shout out to my mom for the relationship that we do have, that I was even comfortable to just be like, what’s going on? So I can literally tell you when I asked her, how I asked her.anna martin
Please. If you want to, I would love to know that story.natasha cloud
Yeah. We were just on the way to Blockbuster, and I was like, man, what is this? Why do I look different than our —anna martin
How old were you guys?natasha cloud
— our family? I think I was, like, 12, for real. And my mom was just like — I mean, she just kind of laid it out for me. Like, this is what happens. It was a tough time in our marriage. This is —anna martin
Her and your dad?natasha cloud
Yeah. This is what happened. And I made a decision that I take full responsibility of. And she was like, your dad was amazing. Because the moment I told him, yes, he’s hurt as a man. He’s hurt —anna martin
And what was the decision? Did she tell you? Like, I had an affair? How did she say it?natasha cloud
Yeah.anna martin
Do you remember?natasha cloud
Yeah. She essentially said it. And what a strong woman to just be like, man, this is what it is, when her kid is asking her. And there wasn’t any secrets from my mom about the situation. The only thing that — I not really appreciated that my mom did this in hindsight of, when you’re 18, I will tell you his name. I will tell you everything —anna martin
The man who is your biological father.natasha cloud
Yeah, my sperm donor. When you’re 18 and you’re of age, and you can make that adult decision of whether you want to go look for him or not, that will be — I will tell you on your 18th birthday immediately. And I was like, OK, I respect that. Obviously, I was left with a lot of questions that —anna martin
Oh my God. How are you supposed to —natasha cloud
Yeah.anna martin
— just continue on with your life?natasha cloud
I remember going home and just being like, so he didn’t want me. That’s essentially what it comes down to.
Oh, my —
Right? And you’re a kid that’s like, well, at least I’m wanted in this home. So even from a young kid, I knew my dad took care of everything that I ever needed. He’s given me everything that I’ve ever needed. So there’s no need to go look for this sperm donor. I don’t have a want to. And so when I was 18 and my mom — I remember come down for school while I was in my Catholic school outfit. And she was like, do you want to know? And I was like —anna martin
A few years later, you were 18. And it was the time, yeah, you could ask this question, right?natasha cloud
Yeah. And I’m like, yeah, I want to know. And she told me. He lived a town over. His son was super athletic, played football at a local school. And it’s crazy because it’s like, I know you saw my name. I know you saw my mom’s name in that paper. I know you saw my dad’s name in that paper.anna martin
Becuase by this point, you were super successful.natasha cloud
I’m super successful. I’m playing at all the local schools. I’m in the newspaper constantly. So I’m like, I know you are seeing me.anna martin
Wow.natasha cloud
And my mom was like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I just wanted to know. Like, that, for me, was the, I think, final chapter close to me, is, like, I just wanted to know his name. I wanted to know where he was from. I wanted to know just about him.
And that was to the extent that I ever wanted to know him. I didn’t ever feel like I needed to go and be like, this is who the fuck I am. This is who you left. You don’t deserve — you don’t deserve to know me. You don’t deserve to even sit down in front of me. You don’t deserve that — I don’t even know what I would call it — like, that privilege to me, to my energy, and to who Emil Cloud raised me to be. You don’t get that — and Sharon.
So yeah, I think that was my first, I would say, adversity in life. But it literally has shaped me and molded me into who I am, why I am the way I am, and especially in my activism. I’ve had to deal with my own siblings voting for Trump. When you need to navigate and talk to fucking frustrating-ass people — I’ve done it. I’ve done it in my own family. I’ve had people that have been like, you’re racist. I’m like, in an all-white family? You don’t know me.anna martin
I’m just thinking about — it’s so vivid in your mind. It’s clear — on the way to Blockbuster, coming down the stairs in your [INAUDIBLE]. There are these moments in your life that are burned into your brain, these pivotal moments. And I’m so struck that your first reaction wasn’t rage, as we spoke about. It was love for your mom and love for your dad.natasha cloud
Absolutely.anna martin
And I just want to call out, I don’t think that — I’ve heard stories about people realizing maybe their parent wasn’t who they thought they were. That is not a reaction that everyone has — immediate compassion —natasha cloud
Love.anna martin
— for your parents, for your mom who made this choice.natasha cloud
Understanding of even what it means as a 33-year-old that has been in relationships and how hard relationships are to maintain and to commit to, to withstand all the trials and tribulations of it. Like, I understand my mom more so now as an adult, too, which is really cool. But yeah, even from a young time, I think I’ve always been rooted in love. Even my dad to take me in as his own, that’s rooted in love.anna martin
And you keep saying that. I mean, that’s another remarkable aspect of this story.natasha cloud
What a good fucking man.anna martin
I mean, and did she share with you, when you were young, what that conversation between them was like, if there even was a conversation?natasha cloud
I mean, she had to tell him.anna martin
That’s true. Well, that’s also true.natasha cloud
A, she’s pregnant. And B, this baby going to come out a little bit brown, so we gotta tell him. We gotta tell him.anna martin
You’re right.natasha cloud
But my mom —anna martin
Bad question on my part.natasha cloud
— to be honest with him, I commend her for that, for even being able to sit down and have that conversation. But she even told me, without hesitation, he was like — man, to see how much my dad loves my mom, even despite all that, how much he loved me and my siblings. I’m one of five. So I truly never, ever needed anything else besides him. I feel wholeheartedly rooted in that.anna martin
Can I ask you, did you ever have a conversation with your dad about what this meant to you and your relationship?natasha cloud
Honestly, no, because my dad is like such a simple man. I remember having to tell my mom that I was gay. And I was crying and sobbing. And I was like — and she was like, why are you crying? I’m like, I don’t fucking know. This is a lot. I don’t even feel like I should have to fucking come home and tell you that I’m dating a girl. I feel like I should be able to bring my person home and that be normalized. But even with that, I never told my dad I was gay. I literally just brought my girlfriend home, and he was like, it’s nice to meet you.anna martin
[LAUGHS]:natasha cloud
My dad is truly the most simple — everyone that meets him — he looks like the old man from “Up.”anna martin
Oh my god!natasha cloud
He is like the sweetest hearted. Everyone loves talking to him. Everyone — random-ass strangers.anna martin
Wow.natasha cloud
So this is just who my dad is. He really wants my mom to retire. And he was just like — I’m like, what does that mean? Like, what do you mean? Because they don’t ever ask for anything. They won’t even let me take over the fucking phone bill.anna martin
You’re still on the family plan?natasha cloud
I’m still on the family plan.anna martin
That is so cute!natasha cloud
And I still send my — it’s like my mom finally — I think she kind of forgot. And I hope she don’t listen to this. And I hope it doesn’t remind her.anna martin
Don’t send her this one.natasha cloud
Don’t send her this part. And I’m like, I’m 33.anna martin
In the WBNA, yeah.natasha cloud
I’ve played in this year 10 years. I can fucking afford the — something. And it was, like, the first time he’s ever been like, I just want your mom to retire and be good. So this is what she needs. I was like, OK, I can do that. I’m like, what do you need? And he starts tearing up. I’m like, don’t fucking cry because I’m going to fucking cry. He’s like, I don’t need anything. I just want your mom taken care of.
I’m like, I’m going to cry now. I’m like, man.[crying]
You have given me a life that I couldn’t have even dreamed of. You took me in his room when you didn’t have to. And I think navigating a world full of men that aren’t of quality, it shows how rare he is.anna martin
Yeah.natasha cloud
And so I do want to take care of him, too. I do want to take care of my parents so much. And I think every kid should. I want them to have experiences that we never had as kids because we couldn’t afford to and that I can give them now. And even for my parents to still be so proud and not want to take from their kids, I think it’s really rare. And especially in our profession, too, you have families that bleed people out of their contracts. You have families that just take advantage of players and use them as a cash cow.
My family has never taken anything from me. I truly have the best parents in the world. Even my siblings that vote for fucking Trump, y’all irritate my fucking ass, but I know that if I ever needed to be defended or if they needed to step in for me, they would. And I think that’s what it comes down to, is just, like, everything that I do is rooted in love because everything I have ever known has been rooted in love.
[MUSIC PLAYING]anna martin
We’ll be right back.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
You learn the name, let’s say, of your sperm donor, as you call him, at 18 —natasha cloud
Yes.anna martin
— which is such an intense time because you’re going off to college.natasha cloud
Yeah.anna martin
And I wonder, once you got to college, were you like, oh, my god, I need to make Black friends. Like, how were you thinking about your identity —natasha cloud
Like getting closer to —anna martin
— as you moved on to that?natasha cloud
Yeah. Because I think that’s something that I didn’t touch on, is, like, as I was getting older, I think I was starting to not struggle with, but I wanted to know. I grew up in a white family. I went to all really good schools, but predominantly white schools in a predominantly white area. So I wasn’t really — I didn’t get to experience what my Blackness meant.
And so my first college was University of Maryland. And when I tell you the thing that I love most and still to this day about UMD is the diversity that is on campus. And I, as an 18-year-old, just excited to get out of the house and move a little bit away and to really just dive into, who is Tash, like, who am I, it was the most amazing thing to me, as a young mixed girl to finally just be engulfed in such beautiful Blackness.
And it wasn’t even my teammates that I really hung out with. It was the track girls. It was the football guys. It was like the other teams around campus that really just like, man, I’m indebted to them. And they don’t even know it of how much they allowed me to find — I knew the white side. I didn’t know that Black side yet. I think before I got to Maryland, I was like, I’m a mixed kid. I’m a mixed kid. That’s who I am, and that’s who I identify with because I didn’t know that other side.
And so when I finally had my Blackness, it was the first time after that first year at Maryland that I was like, I’m really fucking proud to be a Black woman. I am really fucking proud to be a Black woman. And I still have to — obviously, it doesn’t take anything away from me being proud to be mixed, because I think that’s —anna martin
Of course.natasha cloud
— also important to who I am. And that’s why I talk so much. Because I might be biased, but I think being a mixed kid and not fitting in with any other group is one of the hardest fucking kids to be. And so I hope, in even me just talking about being mixed, that one mixed kid goes home and is like, I feel seen, and I feel validated. And whatever questions I have, whatever insecurities I have, whatever, I can start to navigate this. And if I can get one kid to do that, that’s an ultimate win for me.anna martin
I mean, you spoke about this somewhat, but as you grew more and more into this identity, into this pride, as you say, and then you go home for Christmas, for Thanksgiving, for whatever, and you’re back with your family, who you love, who is white, what was that like? How did you coming into your identity interact with your family relationships?natasha cloud
Yeah. I think it took them just a second to, like, oh, this is Tash. Like, this is new Tash that went off to college, that’s an adult, that’s figuring out and navigating her life and who she is. And I think a lot of the times, too, I’m OK with being the crashout in the family because my —anna martin
[LAUGHS]:natasha cloud
— crashouts are all validated and backed by facts —anna martin
That’s so funny.natasha cloud
— and truth. And so, yeah, I think I came back a little bit radical, too. My parents are — and this is what I love about my parents, too, and why I love them down bad. Even things that they might not necessarily understand, as two white parents, they meet me, always. So I really appreciate my parents as two older white people that have been privileged their whole entire lives. They literally will allow themselves to hear me and to move with me. It means the world to me.
And I have said that to them as of late, too, of, like, I really do appreciate That You might not understand my walk of life, but you understand that I’m yours. So it is your job to walk this life with me. And I think that’s really important. I think a lot of even kids to — it’s an underrated thing for me to go home and even tell my family, I’m gay, and not have one person say shit about it.anna martin
We’re talking about you coming into your identity when it comes to your race.natasha cloud
Yeah.anna martin
You’re also talking about coming out.natasha cloud
Oh, I was faking being straight for years. It was so annoying.anna martin
[LAUGHS]:natasha cloud
It was so annoying.anna martin
Can you — I mean —natasha cloud
Oh, I hated it.anna martin
If you want to talk about that, what does —natasha cloud
Yeah, we could talk about it.anna martin
— what does that mean? So it’s like, when you were growing up, you were having crushes on boys, or you were saying you did?natasha cloud
So I still tell you this. As a 33-year-old, if a fine-ass man walks by this room, I’m going to be like, he fine. So I can —anna martin
You’d appreciate it, you’re saying.natasha cloud
I’d appreciate it. But all the other shit that comes with y’all, I do not — I can’t.anna martin
[LAUGHS]:natasha cloud
I can’t.anna martin
But for a while —natasha cloud
And I tried. I did. I really did try.anna martin
I mean, it’s funny, because these things are maybe — it’s like, when you were young, did you have boyfriends? I mean, what was it —natasha cloud
Yeah.anna martin
OK, yeah.natasha cloud
Y’all, I didn’t start messing with women until I was like 23, 24. And so up until that point, no, I was only with men. I had this childhood sweetheart since sixth grade till, I would say, freshman year of college. That was my person. And he sucked. No, I’m just playing.anna martin
[LAUGHS]:natasha cloud
We’re actually still really cool. He has a kid now and everything.anna martin
I was going to say —natasha cloud
We were best friends when we were growing up and stuff, so it just made sense.anna martin
When did you realize you were queer or interested in —natasha cloud
I always thought women were beautiful.anna martin
Right.natasha cloud
I always would be like, oh, she’s absolutely gorgeous or whatever. I don’t think that I was ready to navigate that space until I figured out who I was as a human being, and to feel very secure in that, to take that step. So when I got to the League — and this is one thing that does piss me off. This League don’t turn people gay.anna martin
[LAUGHS]: I will say —natasha cloud
You don’t turn people gay. It’s in you. It’s innately in you. It is in you. So when I got to this League, it didn’t turn me gay, but I was surrounded by strong, powerful, badass —anna martin
You’ve talked about that. Yeah.natasha cloud
— independent, outspoken women that were so unapologetic about who they were, how they show up, what their families look like. And I was like, man, I feel empowered to just be in this locker room and not be judged.anna martin
Huh.natasha cloud
Yeah, I just — I dived into it. I was like, oh shit, I kind of like it over here.anna martin
[LAUGHS]:natasha cloud
And I was still playing that middleman for three years.anna martin
You come out as bi publicly, at least. You were bi for — yeah, yeah, or said you were bi.natasha cloud
And I said I was bi. And I didn’t mean that shit when I said it. But what people don’t understand is for any mask or gay person in our League or Papi, Stud, whatever terminology you want to use for yourself, anyone that was deemed different, no sponsorship dollars, no endorsement dollars, because you can’t sell to what? The male demographic.anna martin
Whoa.natasha cloud
Because they didn’t feel like we had enough sex appeal. So for years, I played the, oh, I’m bi. I still do both. I still do this, knowing damn right well that I wasn’t ever going to mess with a man again.anna martin
Now, how interesting is that? Because you’re saying that in —natasha cloud
It still happens to me.anna martin
Really?natasha cloud
It has gotten better over the last probably year or so. Obviously, the StudBudz weren’t crazy.anna martin
I saw that.natasha cloud
I created the Papi Crops with Brittney Sykes two, three years ago. And finally, I feel like our League is slowly starting to see, and not only the League, but sponsorships, endorsements outside of that is like, there’s a huge demographic for them.anna martin
My god. Have you been to Barclays when you guys are playing?natasha cloud
Do you know how many straight women tell me they would leave their — and this is like —anna martin
But what I’m going to say is, what you’re pointing out is so interesting because you’re saying, when you were in the process of coming out to yourself, to other people, it’s like, in the locker room, with the teams, you felt completely —natasha cloud
Seen.anna martin
— at home, seen, cared for.natasha cloud
Exactly, yeah.anna martin
And then it’s like — so and that’s because of the experience of being in the League, you’re meeting these other gay women.natasha cloud
And we’re like, bro, mind your fucking business.anna martin
But then it’s like, from the outside, it’s this weird space you’re in where you can’t — you can express yourself so fully with your teammates, but then because of the League, because of sponsorships —natasha cloud
You can’ do it.anna martin
— and money and dollars, you can’t do it. When did it feel and how did it feel, more important, to you to be true to yourself than it did — like, when were you ready to risk that money or that sponsorship?natasha cloud
I would say probably, like, 24.anna martin
Hmm.natasha cloud
I just felt really rooted in myself. Even when I came out, my play got better on the court.anna martin
Wow.natasha cloud
I was torching people. It was almost like, I was like the Hulk that just got his superpowers, right?anna martin
What do you think that was? I love that. What do you think that was?natasha cloud
I think just, for me, when you hide a part of yourself, or you suppress a part of yourself, you’re not fully obviously yourself. You’re not fully you. And so you limit yourself in so many ways. And I felt like I was limiting myself for all those years, by not just being out and confident in who I am. Because if I can’t even be confident in who I am as a person, how the fuck am I confident in who I am as a player?
[MUSIC PLAYING]anna martin
We’ll be right back.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
At this time, where you’re publicly identifying as queer —natasha cloud
As gay as fuck, yep.anna martin
As gay as fuck — OK, let’s just say that.natasha cloud
I got called a Liberty Lesbian last week, and I kind of loved it.anna martin
Wait, that’s kind of nice.natasha cloud
Yeah, no, I loved it.anna martin
That was great.natasha cloud
I loved that. It was in a good way.anna martin
How did you two — your girlfriend, Izzy Harrison, let’s just say.natasha cloud
We love her. Look her up. You going to see I bagged a 10 out of 10, a 100 out of 10. Clock it.anna martin
Clock it. I mean, who made the first move?natasha cloud
Isabelle. And I love telling this to everyone.anna martin
Really? I didn’t know that!natasha cloud
This is my moment. This is my moment. This is my moment. She’s going to kill me when I get home. And I love you, Isabelle. But this is my moment to really just flex.anna martin
That’s not what I thought.natasha cloud
Yeah, every —anna martin
I thought you DM’d her.natasha cloud
So I did.anna martin
Right.natasha cloud
She denied me hard. That was like —anna martin
And you were like, what’s up?natasha cloud
Yeah. She said no to me. And what did I say? We respect a woman’s no. So after that, I’m straight friendship. I might have a little flirtation in the mix —anna martin
How could you not?natasha cloud
— but it’s never going to be where I make you uncomfortable. It’s never going to be — I really took that no as like a we can just be friends. But I think you’re my fine-ass friend. That’s for sure.anna martin
And I would love to kiss you and do all the things.natasha cloud
I would love to kiss you and do all the things with you. But I don’t know if you want to do that shit with me.anna martin
Wait, can I — it’s like, so she was giving you these hints finally. Like, you took it. But there was also a thing —natasha cloud
We actually went to a massage. And she was just like, hey, do you want to hang out? And I was like, yeah, I absolutely do after this. And from there, it was wraps. I was like, oh, this is what — you want to hang —anna martin
Like a couple’s massage?natasha cloud
— out. No, it was like, we were just working out so hard in the offseason that that’s our form of self-care. So we had gone. We each had our own separate. And then we came out in the car, and it was like, so what you doing?anna martin
Aw, my god.natasha cloud
Yeah, it was just like — we both mustered up the courage, I guess, at that point. I just truly fell in love with the person. I could have told you three weeks in, I was like —anna martin
You knew.natasha cloud
Yeah.anna martin
How? And I always ask people this because they really — I believe it, that people just know. How do you know? Was there a moment? Was there another moment? Like, you look at each other in the car?natasha cloud
Our first conversation, it was like us getting to know each other the first time we sat down one-on-one. And we led into an hour conversation of just our families, our foundation, our morals, our values. I was like, I really align with you as a human being. And I’ll be honest about myself. I think in that moment, I was in my hoe phase, and everyone has their hoe phase. And I’m an advocate for the hoe phase because — and don’t hurt people throughout your hoe phase, but you got to get all that stuff out your system.anna martin
I totally agree with you.natasha cloud
You got to get it out. Whatever makes you happy in those moments, you just got to be — sometimes you got to be selfish in life to get what you want. And so, yeah, I was definitely in one of those. But as soon as I met Izzy, it was like everything stopped. I feel fully fulfilled. It’s the first time I’ve ever been fully reciprocated, too, in my relationship of having an equal partner that doesn’t need you, but wants you. Izzy has her own shit.anna martin
How important is that?natasha cloud
She has her own money. She has her own — she’s a Jordan athlete. She’s had nine years in this League. She has her own — and what I love about her most, too, is like, even when she was with men before me, didn’t pay for anything.anna martin
Because you are the first woman that she’s been with. Yeah, yeah.natasha cloud
And so I needed someone that I couldn’t play with. I needed someone that was very much like my mom. And Izzy is damn near the reflection. They say you really do look for your parents in your partner.anna martin
Absolutely.natasha cloud
Even home-cooked meals, taking care of everything that we need in order to be successful. And I bring that same to the table. But Izzy is the first woman that ever has done that for me, too.anna martin
Sometimes you talk to people, and you just realize what you’re looking for. But it’s funny because you were like, I need someone I couldn’t play with. I know what you meant. But you do play with Izzy. You’re on the same team.natasha cloud
I do. Yep. This is our first time.anna martin
This is an experience that very few people work with their partners. I would say, very few people also play on the same sort of sports team as their partners. And I’m so curious, how does your relationship at home influence your dynamic on the court? I mean, I’m sure people have asked you this, but I’m so — I want a window into what that’s like.natasha cloud
Yeah, we never tried to play together, which is —anna martin
Yeah. You were traded.natasha cloud
— the crazy part. I was traded. And so she had already signed to New York. And we had made it a very — it was a priority for us not to be on the same team because you hear horror stories sometimes of previous teams that have had couples and relationships and how it can negatively affect —anna martin
It seems really hard.natasha cloud
Yeah, it can negatively affect a locker room. It can negatively affect the relationship itself because you never get any breaks from each other. So I think me and Izzy were very intentional about approaching this the right way and being extremely professional to — no one would ever — we don’t ever want to make people feel like our relationship is hindering our success as a team because the team is the ultimate, most important thing for us.
So we have our own separate apartments. Now, Izzy stays — our main apartment is our apartment that we have all of our dogs in. It’s a two-bedroom. It’s cool. But she has her own apartment —anna martin
Her own space.natasha cloud
— for when she just needed Izzy time. And I’m clingy as fuck. I’m a golden retriever. I am full —anna martin
[LAUGHS]:natasha cloud
I call myself a golden retriever, but I’m really a pitbull. And for those of you that — I have two. For those of you that have pitbulls, you know how fucking clingy they are, yeah, and attention-demanding. That is me. Izzy is polar opposite. She very much is like — and it’s something that I love about her, is like, I am still my own person. And when you talk about even why I didn’t relationships with men, that is such an important piece for our relationship, is for Izzy to still be Izzy, and to still have her own shit, to have her own stuff.anna martin
But you are saying something which is like, being on the same team, it’s made having your own space —natasha cloud
That much more important. We really were — a priority for us was our teammates getting Tash and Izzy as individuals.anna martin
Not Tizzy.natasha cloud
You’re always going to get your Tizzy time. We’re going to travel as Tizzy. We’re going to go into these spaces, and we’re going to be Tizzy while we’re in these cities and stuff like that. We have time for our relationship. We go home together every night. But when we’re in the locker room, you get Tash, you get Izzy.
So our schedules are different. Our weightlifting times are different. Our shooting times, our treatment times are different. We’re really like — we were adamant about just being Tash and Izzy in that locker room. And when we get home, we’ll be Tizzy. And it was hard at first of —anna martin
I was going to say.natasha cloud
— the first two weeks —anna martin
That sounds difficult. Yeah.natasha cloud
— the first two weeks of navigating what the space looked like for us. What does it look like? How do we manage being together all the time and not having a break? Because most couples get a break when they go to work.anna martin
That’s what I’m saying. Yeah.natasha cloud
And I’m so proud of us for how we were able to go through this season. So —anna martin
I do just wonder, is it totally hot to see your girlfriend kill it on the court? Like, what a turn-on.natasha cloud
What?anna martin
Isn’t that — is it?natasha cloud
I tell her all the time. I’m like, I actually — I love Izzy in some basketball gear. Like, that is, to me — and even meeting Izzy at first, I think she had been so — in a lot of ways, women are conditioned to always look their best, and you got to show up. And I’d be like, you don’t need none of that makeup. I love that you want it. And I love that you love makeup. I love that when you do it, you — 100 out of 10. But man, I think you’re the most beautiful when you don’t have no makeup on, when you’re wearing my clothes in the crib. That is it. So when I see her on the court, I absolutely am — there was one game, the whole crowd started chanting “Izzy.” And I was like — I was like, I’m beyond that shit. Not too much. She’s going to kill me if I — if I go too far with the sexual jokes, she’s going to kill my ass because she is very reserved. So I’m reeling myself back.anna martin
I understand what you’re saying.natasha cloud
But you know what I’m saying?anna martin
God.natasha cloud
Like, I’m going to yell that shit, too.
I’ll be like — I’ll be like, you look good.anna martin
That is so hot. That is so hot. I want to figure out — I mean, and this is — you sit before me. I watch you play. You strike me as someone who is so — who knows who they are, right?natasha cloud
Man, I love myself. I think I’ve said that for — two weeks ago, for the first time out loud. And I remember just sitting down in my apartment. And there’s a little mirror that is right across. And I looked at myself, and I was like, I really fuck with who I am.anna martin
You love yourself.natasha cloud
I love myself. I love myself very thoroughly. I love my gay masculine presenting —anna martin
[LAUGHS]:natasha cloud
— mixed Blackity Black, Black, Black. I love me.
[MUSIC PLAYING]anna martin
Thank you so much.natasha cloud
Oh, thank you [INAUDIBLE] this, too.anna martin
That was truly — thank you. And we’re done.natasha cloud
We are done.anna martin
Wow.natasha cloud
Mic drops.anna martin
How about that? Thank you so much for going there with me.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
The “Modern Love” team is Amy Pearl, Christina Djossa, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Amy Pearl. And it was edited by Lynn Levy. Special thanks to Christina Djossa, Janelle Anderson, and Sabreena Merchant. Original music in this episode by Elisheba Ittoop and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music.
This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez, with studio support from Maddy Masiello and Nick Pittman. The “Modern Love” column is edited by Daniel Jones. Miya Lee is the editor of “Modern Love” projects. If you’d like to submit an essay or a Tiny Love Story to “The New York Times,” we’ve always got those instructions in our show notes. I’m Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Listen · 38:29 min
Anna Martin: Natasha Cloud, welcome to “Modern Love.”
Natasha Cloud: Thank you for having me.
Martin: Do you prefer Tash? Everyone calls you Tash.
Cloud: You can call me Tash, Tasha. Natasha is really for my mama. And when she calls me Natasha, I’m like — oh, what did I do?
Martin: You’re a new New Yorker. What’s your go-to bodega order?
Cloud: I’m very basic with my food, but I love me a good bacon, egg and cheese with a double cheese. Make that bacon extra crisp, because I don’t want no fat on that.I like a little hot sauce, but honestly, I’m a grape jelly girl.
Martin: On the bacon, egg and cheese?
Cloud: Listen, don’t knock it until you try it.
Martin: I have never heard of this. This could be an innovation.
Cloud: Let me put you on. Let me bring the Philly to New York.
Martin: You are the first athlete I’ve ever interviewed on “Modern Love.”
Cloud: Stop. I’m honored.
Martin: It’s funny to me that we’ve never had an athlete on the show, because we’re a show about love and relationships, and it strikes me that relationships between teammates are incredibly close. They can sometimes be complicated. And when I think about the hard things that a team goes through collectively, I think of losses. Sorry to say this, but it is true: You were out of the playoffs in the first round. I wonder, as a leader on the team, how do you handle losses?
Cloud: Hoo, I’m a sore loser.
Martin: I feel like you don’t get to your level without being a sore loser.
Cloud: Yeah, like, I truly hate losing. It could literally be an Uno game — like, Izzy kicks my ass at Uno all the time.
Martin: Izzy, your girlfriend.
Cloud: Yes, y’all — don’t play her in Uno. She be acting like this cute little sweet — ooh, I don’t even know what I’m doing — and then boom, Uno out. I’m like, We just started! So I’m super competitive.
I will say that the accountability factor even for myself is — when adversity hits, and there’s always ebbs and flows to a season, I have to remain more consistent. Even in my frustrations of like — I don’t feel like we’re playing well, we’re not gelling — like, I’ll be frustrated. In those moments, the accountability for me for next year is to be more consistent.
Martin: Tell me what that looks like for you. What do you do to calm yourself down?
Cloud: I’m going to remove myself from the actual team setting. I’m probably going into our weight room and I’m going to throw a medicine ball or something.
Martin: Then what do you do?
Cloud: Inhale for six, hold for one, exhale for seven, to regulate my body and my nervous system, like meditation. And then I’ll go back in, and if I feel like I have to get into it, I will, but it will be in a very calm demeanor.
But there are a lot of times when it’s not solely on me. I have a whole team behind me. So there will be moments where I’ll do that and I’ll come back in, and I just sit and wait for Sab to say something — I’ll wait for Stewie, or JJ, because it’s collaborative. As a point guard, I talk enough — the ball is always in my hands, I’m always directing and pointing. So sometimes it is good for me just to sit back and shut up.
Martin: It sounds like these are skills you had to learn. You were maybe not this way when you were younger.
Cloud: No.
Martin: Is there a story you can share of young Tash, in sports or not, experiencing an adversity or hardship, and how you reacted with that fire?
Cloud: I feel like I’m about to go deep with this question. I think the very beginning for me and my story is that my mom is my real mom, my dad would technically be my stepdad, but that’s not who he is to me. That is my real father. Emil Cloud is the man that took me in and raised me and gave me everything that I needed to be successful in life, and the same with my mom.
I’m the only one of mixed race in my family. Even just going back this weekend for a funeral, seeing my whole family — it’s just like, man, I literally am the black sheep. But I will say in my family’s defense, like, I truly never felt different in my family. I was so innocent. People really get tickled by this one when I tell them — I was like, 11, when I was like, Oh, I’m Blackity Black, because my dad actually tans. I’m not even playing — we would be the same color, and I’m like, Oh, I just keep it for the duration.
That shows how innocent children truly are, and we teach them what they fully believe later in life, because I would have never known that I was any bit different because my family never treated me different.
Martin: Did your mom, or your dad or your siblings — back when you were 11, before you clocked that you were different — did they talk about you and your relation to the family?
Cloud: It was just like, This is our family — this is what our family looks like. Me and my siblings are technically half siblings — none of us would ever say that.
Martin: But at the time, you didn’t know, right?
Cloud: I didn’t know. And so, it comes to the point where you as a kid start getting curious and you’re intrigued, and you’re starting to see how the outside world is treating you. So shout out to my mom for the relationship that we do have that I was even comfortable to just be like, What’s going on?
We were just on the way to Blockbuster and I was like, Man, what is this? Like, why do I look different than our family? I think I was 12. And my mom just kind of laid it out for me: This is what happened. It was a tough time in our marriage. I made a decision that I take full responsibility of, and your dad was amazing.
Martin: And what was the decision? Did she tell you, I had an affair?
Cloud: Yeah, she essentially said it, and what a strong woman to just be like, this is what it is. There weren’t any secrets from my mom about the situation. The only thing — and I really appreciated that my mom did this in hindsight, of like: When you’re 18, I will tell you his name. I will tell you everything.
Martin: The man who is your biological father?
Cloud: Yeah, my sperm donor. Like, when you’re 18, and you’re of age, and you can make that adult decision of whether you want to go look for him or not, I will tell you on your 18th birthday immediately. And I was like, OK, I respect that. Obviously, I was left with a lot of questions.
Martin: Oh my god. How are you supposed to just continue on?
Cloud: I remember going home and just being like, so, he didn’t want me. That’s essentially what it comes down to, right? Well, at least I’m wanted in this home. Even as a young kid, I knew my dad took care of everything that I ever needed. He’s given me everything that I have ever needed, so there’s no need to go look for this sperm donor. Like, I don’t have a want to.
So when I was 18, and my mom like — I remember coming down for school while I was in my Catholic school outfit, and she was like, Do you want to know? And I’m like, Yeah, I want to know. She told me he lived a town over. His son was super athletic, played football at a local school, and it’s crazy because it’s like, I know you saw my name, I know he saw my mom’s name in the paper, I know he saw my dad’s name in the paper.
Martin: Because by this point, you were super successful.
Cloud: I’m super successful. I’m playing at all local schools. I’m in the newspaper constantly. So I’m like, I know you are seeing me.
My mom was like, What do you want to do? And I was like, I just wanted to know. For me, that was the final chapter close. I just wanted to know his name. I wanted to know where he was from. I just wanted to know about him, and that was to the extent that I ever wanted to know him. I didn’t ever feel like I needed to go and be like: This is who I am. This is who you left. You don’t deserve to know me. You don’t deserve to even sit down in front of me. You don’t deserve that privilege, to my energy and to who Emil and Sharon Cloud raised me to be. You don’t get that.
I think that was like my first, I would say, adversity in life, but it literally shaped me and molded me into who I am, why I am the way I am, and especially in my activism. I’ve had to deal with my own siblings voting for Trump. When you need to navigate and talk to frustrating people, I’ve done it in my own family. I’ve met people that have been like, You’re racist. I’m like, in an all-white family? You don’t know me.
Martin: It’s clear that there are these moments in your life that are burned into your brain — on the way to Blockbuster, coming down the stairs in your Catholic uniform. There are these pivotal moments, and I’m struck that your first reaction wasn’t rage as we spoke about — it was love for your mom and love for your dad.
Cloud: Absolutely.
Martin: And I just want to call out — I’ve heard stories about people realizing that maybe their parent wasn’t who they thought they were, and that is not a reaction that everyone has: immediate compassion for your parents, for your mom, who made this choice.
Cloud: Understanding what it means — even as a 33-year-old that has been in relationships and how hard relationships are to maintain and to commit to, to withstand all the trials and tribulations of it, like, I understand my mom more so now as an adult — but yeah, even from a young time, I think I’ve always been rooted in love. Even my dad to take me in as his own, that’s rooted in love.
Martin: You keep saying that. I mean, that’s another remarkable aspect of this story. Did your mom share with you, when you were young, what that conversation between them was like, if there even was a conversation?
Cloud: I mean, she had to tell him. A, she’s pregnant, and B, this baby is going to come out a little bit brown, so we have to tell him. But even my mom, to be honest with him — I commend her for that, for even being able to sit down and have that conversation. Man, to see how much my dad loves my mom even despite all that, how much he loved me and my siblings — I’m one of five, so like, I truly never ever needed anything else besides him. I feel wholeheartedly rooted in that.
Martin: Did you ever have a conversation with your dad about what this meant to you and your relationship?
Cloud: Honestly, no, because my dad is, like, such a simple man — even when I remember having to tell my mom that I was gay and I, like, was crying and sobbing, and she was like, Why are you crying? I’m like: I don’t know. This is a lot. I don’t even feel like I should have to come home and tell you that I’m dating a girl. I feel like I should be able to bring my person home and that be normalized. But even with that, I never told my dad I was gay. I literally just brought my girlfriend home, and he was like, It’s nice to meet you. Like, my dad is truly the most simple. Everyone that meets him, he looks like the old man from “Up.” He is the sweetest hearted. Everyone loves talking to him, everyone — random strangers. So this is just who my dad is. He really wants my mom to retire, and I’m like: What does that mean? Like, what do you need? Because they don’t ever ask for anything. They won’t even let me take over the phone bill.
Martin: You’re still on the family plan?
Cloud: I’m still on the family plan. My mom, I think she kind of forgot, and I hope this doesn’t remind her.
And it was, like, the first time he’s ever been like, I just want your mom to retire and be good, so this is what she needs. I was like, OK, I can do that — what do you need? And he starts tearing up. I’m like, Don’t cry, ’cause I’m going to cry. He’s like: I don’t need anything. I just want your mom taken care of.
I’m going to cry now. I’m like, Man, you have given me a life that I couldn’t even dream of. You took me in as your own when you didn’t have to. And I think navigating a world full of men that aren’t of quality, it shows how rare he is. And so, I do want to take care of him too. I do want to take care of my parents so much. I think every kid should. I want them to have experiences that we never had as kids because we couldn’t afford to and that I could give them now.
And even for my parents to still be so proud and not want to take from their kids, I think it’s really rare. Especially in our profession, too, you have families that bleed people out of their contracts. You have families who just take advantage of players and use them as a cash cow. My family has never taken anything from me. I truly have the best parents in the world.
Even my siblings that vote for Trump, I know that if I ever needed to be defended or they needed to step in for me, they would, and I think that’s what it comes down to. Everything that I do is rooted in love, because everything that I have ever known has been rooted in love.
Martin: You learned the name of your “sperm donor,” as you call him, at 18, which is such an intense time because you’re going off to college. I wonder, once you got to college, were you like, Oh my god, I need to make Black friends? How were you thinking about your identity?
Cloud: Yeah, as I was getting older, I was starting to, not struggle with it, but I wanted to know — I grew up in a white family. I went to all really good schools, but predominantly white schools in a predominantly white area. So I didn’t get to experience what my Blackness meant. My first college was University of Maryland, and when I tell you the thing that I love most and still to this day about UMD is the diversity that is on campus. And I, as an 18-year-old, was just excited to get out of the house and move a little bit away, and really just dive into, Who is Tash? Like, who am I?
It was the most amazing thing to me as a young mixed girl to finally just be engulfed in such beautiful Blackness, and it wasn’t even my teammates that I really hung out with. It was the track girls, it was the football guys, it was the other teams around campus. I’m indebted to them, and they don’t even know it. I knew the white side. I didn’t know that Black side yet.
I think before I got to Maryland I was like: I’m a mixed kid. That’s who I am, and that’s who I identify with, because I didn’t know that other side. And so when I finally had my Blackness, it was the first time after that first year at Maryland that I was like, I’m really proud to be a Black woman. I am really proud to be Black woman.
Obviously, that doesn’t take anything away from me being proud to be mixed, because I think that’s also important to who I am, and that’s why I talk about it so much. Because — I might be biased — but I think being a mixed kid and not fitting in with any other group is one of the hardest kids to be. And so I hope in even just talking about being mixed, that one mixed kid goes home and is like, I feel seen and I feel validated in whatever questions I have, whatever insecurities I have, whatever. I can start to navigate this, and if I can get one kid to do that, that’s an ultimate win for me.
Martin: You spoke about this somewhat, but as you grew more and more into this identity, into this pride, as you say, and then you go home for Christmas, for Thanksgiving, for whatever, and you’re back with your family, who you love, who is white. What was that like? Like, how did you coming into your identity interact with your family relationships?
Cloud: Yeah, I think it took them just a second. Like, Oh, this is Tash — this is new Tash that went off to college, that’s an adult that’s figuring out and navigating her life and who she is. I think I came back, like, a little bit radical too. This is why I love my parents, and why I love them down bad, like even things that they might not necessarily understand as two white parents, they meet me, always. I really appreciate my parents as two older white people that have been privileged their whole entire lives, they will allow themselves to hear me and to move with me. It means the world to me, and I’ve said that to them as of late. Like, I really do appreciate that you might not understand my walk of life, but you understand that I’m yours, so it is your job to walk this life with me, and I think that’s really important. I think it’s an underrated thing for me to go home and tell my family I’m gay and not have one person say shit about it.
Martin: We’re talking about you coming into your identity when it comes to your race. You’re also talking about coming out.
Cloud: Oh, I was faking being straight for years. It was so annoying. It was so annoying.
Martin: If you want to talk about that, what does that mean?
Cloud: I really did try. I didn’t start messing with women until I was like 23, 24. So up until that point, I was only with men. I had this childhood sweetheart from sixth grade until freshman year of college. That was my person, and we’re actually still really cool. He has a kid now. We were best friends when we were growing up.
Martin: When did you realize you were queer?
Cloud: I always thought women were beautiful. I always would be like, Oh, she’s absolutely gorgeous or whatever. I don’t think that I was ready to navigate that space until I figured out who I was as a human being and felt very secure in taking that step. So when I got to the league — and this is one thing that does piss me off: This league don’t turn people gay. It’s in you. It is innately in you. So when I got to this league, it didn’t turn me gay, but I was surrounded by strong, powerful, independent, outspoken women that were so unapologetic about who they were, how they show up, what their families look like, and I was like, Man, I feel empowered to just be in this locker room and not be judged. Yeah, I just — I dove into it, and I was like, I kind of like it over here. And I was still playing that middleman for like three years.
Martin: Yeah, you came out as bisexual, publicly at least, or said you were bisexual.
Cloud: I said I was “bi” and I didn’t mean that when I said it, but what people don’t understand is for any masc or gay person in our league — or “papi,” “stud,” whatever terminology you want to use for yourself — anyone that was deemed different? No sponsorship dollars. No endorsement dollars. Because you can’t sell to what? The male demographic. Because they didn’t feel like we had enough sex appeal. So for years, I played the “Oh, I’m ‘bi,’ I still do both” — I still do this, knowing damn right well that I wasn’t ever going to mess with a man again. And it still happens to me.
Martin: Really?
Cloud: It has gotten better over the last probably, like, year or so — obviously, the StudBudz went crazy. I created the papi crops with Brittney Sykes two, three years ago. And finally, I feel like our league is slowly starting to see — and not only the league, but sponsorships, endorsements outside of that — is that there’s a huge demographic for them.
Martin: What you’re pointing out is so interesting, because you’re saying when you were in the process of coming out to yourself and to other people, in the locker room with the teams, you felt completely at home.
Cloud: Seen, and protected, yeah.
Martin: Cared for, and then it’s because of the experience of being in the league. You’re meeting these other gay women. Then from the outside, it’s this weird space you’re in where you can express yourself so fully with your teammates, but then because of the league, because of sponsorships and money and dollars, you can’t. When did it feel more important to you to be true to yourself? When were you ready to risk that money or that sponsorship?
Cloud: I would say probably, like, 24. I just felt really rooted in myself — even when I came out, my play got better on the court, like I was torching people. It was almost like I was, like, the Hulk that just got his superpowers, right?
Martin: What do you think that was? I love that.
Cloud: I think just like, for me, when you hide a part of yourself or you suppress a part of yourself, you’re not fully, obviously, yourself. You’re not fully you, and so you limit yourself in so many ways, and I felt like I was limiting myself for all those years by not just being out and confident in who I am, because if I can’t even be confident in who I am as a person, how am I confident in who I am as a player? I got called a “Liberty lesbian” last week, and I kind of loved it.
Martin: How did you and your girlfriend, Izzy Harrison, meet?
Cloud: Let’s just say we love her. Look her up. You’ll see that I bagged a 10 out of 10. 100 out of 10.
Martin: Who made the first move?
Cloud: Isabelle, and I love telling this to everyone. She’s going to kill me when I get home, and I love you, Isabelle, but this is my moment to really just flex.
Martin: I thought you DM’d her!
Cloud: So I did. She denied me, hard. She said no to me. And what did I say? We respect a woman’s “no.” So after that, I’m straight friendship. I might have a little flirtation in the mix, but it’s never going to be where I make you uncomfortable. I really took that “no” as like, we can just be friends. I would love to kiss you, and do all the things with you, but I don’t know if you want to do that with me.
Martin: So she was giving you hints, and finally you took it?
Cloud: We actually went to a massage, and she was just like, Hey, like, do you want to hang out? And I was like, Yeah, I absolutely do.
Martin: Like a couple’s massage?
Cloud: No, we were just working out so hard in the off-season that that’s our form of self-care. So we each had our own separate massages, and then we came out to the car and it was, So, what you doing? We both mustered up the courage, I guess, at that point. I just truly fell in love. I could have told you like three weeks in, I was like —
Martin: You knew.
Cloud: Yeah.
Martin: How did you know? Was there a moment?
Cloud: Our first conversation, it was, like, us getting to know each other — the first time we sat down one-on-one, and we led into, like, an hour conversation of just, like, our families, our foundation, our morals, our values. I was like, I really align with you as a human being.
I’ll be honest about myself: I think at that moment I was, like, in my “ho phase” — and everyone has their “ho phase,” and I’m an advocate for the “ho phase,” because you have to get all that stuff out of your system. But as soon as I met Izzy, it was like everything stopped.
I feel fully fulfilled. It’s the first time I’ve ever been in a fully reciprocated relationship of having an equal partner that doesn’t need you, but wants you. Izzy has her own money. She’s a Jordan athlete. She’s had nine years in this league. And what I love about her most too is, even when she was with men before me — didn’t pay for anything.
Martin: Because you are the first woman that she’s been with, yeah?
Cloud: Yeah, and so, I needed someone that I couldn’t play with. I needed somebody that was very much like my mom, and Izzy is like damn near the reflection. You know, they say you really do look for your parents in your partner. Even like home-cooked meals, taking care of everything that we need in order to be successful. And I bring that same to the table, but Izzy’s the first woman that ever has done that for me too.
Martin: It’s funny that you say, “I need someone I couldn’t play with.” I know what you meant, but you do play with Izzy. You’re on the same team. Very few people work with their partners. Very few people also play on the same sports team as their partner, and I’m so curious — how does your relationship at home influence your dynamic on the court?
Cloud: Yeah, we never tried to play together, which is the crazy part. I was traded, and she had already signed to New York. And it was a priority for us not to be on the same team. You hear horror stories sometimes of previous teams that have had couples in relationships and how it can negatively affect a locker room, and it can negatively affect the relationship itself because you never get any breaks from each other.
So me and Izzy, we’re very intentional about approaching this the right way and being extremely professional. We don’t ever want to make people feel like our relationship is hindering our success as a team because the team is the ultimate most important thing for us. So, we have our own separate apartments. Our main apartment is our apartment that we have all our dogs in. It’s a two-bedroom, it’s cool, but she has her own apartment for when she just needs Izzy time.
I’m clingy. I’m a golden retriever. I call myself a golden retriever, but I’m really a pit bull. For those of you who have pit bulls, you know how clingy they are, and attention-demanding. That is me. Izzy is the polar opposite, and it’s something that I love about her. That is such an important piece for our relationship, for Izzy to still be Izzy.
Martin: You’re saying, being on the same team, it’s made having your own space —
Cloud: That much more important. A priority for us was our teammates getting Tash and Izzy as individuals. You’re always going to get your “Tizzy” time. We’re going to travel as Tizzy, we’ll go into these spaces and we’re going to be Tizzy. We have time for our relationship. We go home together every night, but when we’re in the locker room, you get Tash, you get Izzy. Our schedules are different, our weight lifting times are different, our shooting times, our treatment times are different. We were adamant about just being Tash and Izzy in that locker room, and when we get home, we’ll be Tizzy.
It was hard at first. The first two weeks of navigating — what does space look like for us? What does it look like? How do we manage being together all the time and not having a break? Because most couples get a break when they go to work. And I’m so proud of us for how we were able to go through the season.
Martin: I do just wonder — is it, like, totally hot to see your girlfriend kill it on the court?
Cloud: I tell her all the time, I’m like, I love Izzy in some basketball gear. Even like meeting Izzy at first, women are conditioned to always look their best, and you got to show up, and I’d be like, You don’t need none of that makeup. I love that you want it. I love that you love makeup. I love when you do it, you 100 out of 10, but like, man, I think you’re most beautiful when you don’t have makeup on, when you’re wearing my clothes in the crib. Like, that is it. There was one game where the whole crowd started chanting “Izzy,” and I was like, I’m going to be yelling that. She’s going to kill me if I go too far with the sexual jokes, ’cause she is very reserved, so I’ll reel myself back in, but you know what I’m saying. I’m going to yell that too.
Martin: You sit before me, I watch you play, you strike me as someone who knows who they are, right?
Cloud: Yeah,I love myself. I think two weeks ago I said that for the first time out loud. And I remember just sitting down in my apartment and there’s a little mirror that is like right across, and I looked at myself and I was like, I really fuck with who I am.I love myself. I love myself very thoroughly. I love my gay, masculine presenting, mixed, Blackity Black, Black, Black. I love me.
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“Modern Love” is hosted by Anna Martin and produced by Reva Goldberg, Emily Lang, Davis Land, Amy Pearl and Sara Curtis. The show is edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant, our executive producer. Production management is by Christina Djossa. The show is mixed by Daniel Ramirez and recorded by Maddy Masiello and Nick Pitman. It features original music by Dan Powell and Elisheba Ittop. Our theme music is by Dan Powell.
Special thanks to Janelle Anderson, Daniel Jones, Miya Lee, Larissa Anderson, Dahlia Haddad, Lisa Tobin, Brooke Minters, Felice León, Dave Mayers, Eddie Costas, Sawyer Roque, Sophie Erickson, Mariya Abdulkaf, Mark Zemel, Pat Gunther, Mahima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda, Isabella Anderson, Christine Nguyen, Reyna Desai, Jordan Cohen, Victoria Kim, Nina Lassam and Julia Simon.
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